Heaven Devalues Life & Death

This thought came across my mind, when I was reading this article about a 12-year-old girl from Poland who killed herself, only leaving a note saying "Dear Mum. Please don't be sad. I just miss daddy so much, I want to see him again."

One's death from an afterlife-believer's perspective should be a time of celebration if anything, not a time of mourning. The believer would only be away from their beloved for an infinitesimally miniscule epoch, in comparison of the eternity they'll be spending with each other in the afterlife. It would actually be incredibly self-centered and rude to mourn someone, in comparison of one who mourns the loss of a beloved one and does not believe in the afterlife. Thus, mourning from an afterlife-believer's perspective is extensively immoral.

The afterlife-believer thinks once they die, they'll be spending eternity with their beloved, therefore, how is death a bad thing? It's the transition stage to entering the supposedly greatest place in existence. Whilst the non-believer thinks this is their only life, and would be burning in purgatory for eternity according to the afterlife-believer's ideology.

Thoughts?

RE: Heaven Devalues Death

This has always been in the back of my head. I believe that we cease to exist after death, making all of the time we have to live even more valuable. With the concept of heaven, it makes it seem like there is really no point in living, if you're going to be eternally happy in the afterlife. Most of the time, the non-believers are the ones who are mourning for the shortest amount of time and those who believe in the afterlife mourn the longest. It seems like it would be the other way around.

RE: Heaven Devalues Death

Leader said:

This has always been in the back of my head. I believe that we cease to exist after death, making all of the time we have to live even more valuable. With the concept of heaven, it makes it seem like there is really no point in living, if you're going to be eternally happy in the afterlife. Most of the time, the non-believers are the ones who are mourning for the shortest amount of time and those who believe in the afterlife mourn the longest. It seems like it would be the other way around.

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Agreed, it advocates the ideology that this stage of this life is basically meaningless and that essentially there's no point in trying their hardest or living in general, because they'll only be here for an insignificantly small amount of time.

RE: Heaven Devalues Death

Cann!bal said:

Agreed, it advocates the ideology that this stage of this life is basically meaningless and that essentially there's no point in trying their hardest or living in general, because they'll only be here for an insignificantly small amount of time.

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It's just another example of the paradoxes and contradictions within organized religions.

RE: Heaven Devalues Death

From what I've learned, there has always been a huge value on the after-life to many people. In certain cultures, life was spent preparing for the after-life. In Egyptian culture items and servants were buried with the deceased royalty to help aid them in their path during the after-life. Onto my view of the subject, there is no after life. When you are dead, your spirit/ being doesn't go to a "Heaven", you simply stop existing on earth. Religion and god too me is just something I cannot understand how people believe it, but that's also due to how I was raised and by whom. This is the only life we have, so to waste it away on a hypothetical next life is insane.

Believing in an afterlife is an excuse to waste the time you have under the notion that you don't really die, you just get kicked along to the next life. So my question is, if the afterlife is so much better, why not take the express route and find out ahead of schedule?

Cann!bal said:

This thought came across my mind, when I was reading this article about a 12-year-old girl from Poland who killed herself, only leaving a note saying "Dear Mum. Please don't be sad. I just miss daddy so much, I want to see him again."

One's death from an afterlife-believer's perspective should be a time of celebration if anything, not a time of mourning. The believer would only be away from their beloved for an infinitesimally miniscule epoch, in comparison of the eternity they'll be spending with each other in the afterlife. It would actually be incredibly self-centered and rude to mourn someone, in comparison of one who mourns the loss of a beloved one and does not believe in the afterlife. Thus, mourning from an afterlife-believer's perspective is extensively immoral.

The afterlife-believer thinks once they die, they'll be spending eternity with their beloved, therefore, how is death a bad thing? It's the transition stage to entering the supposedly greatest place in existence. Whilst the non-believer thinks this is their only life, and would be burning in purgatory for eternity according to the afterlife-believer's ideology.

Thoughts?

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You're not factoring in the human condition. We all have emotions that are uncontrollable for the most part. And you can draw uncertainty from anyone, even you and I. Because the fact is, none of us know. Christians may talk about faith, but as soon as that little girl stopped giggling, smiling, coming home from school- all of that faith is temporarily disregarded for raw emotion, mourning and pain. Something you love is gone, you dont stop to think about how big of a contradiction it is that you are hurting. You just be what you are, a human.

I think your idea is in poor taste. Its almost capitalising on one's mistake in their worst mental state. I know you are just trying to point a logical fallacy, i get that. This is just how I view it.

On a side not, I saw this story too. Its so sad that this happened. It is almost as if the child was using your logic (I dont mean anything negative by that) when she killed herself.

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Cann!bal said:

Agreed, it advocates the ideology that this stage of this life is basically meaningless and that essentially there's no point in trying their hardest or living in general, because they'll only be here for an insignificantly small amount of time.

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Also, I disagree here because the joy doesnt have to be one life or the other. Theoretically you can get a certain level of joy from this life on earth, and then an even greater level of that in the afterlife.

Its like: You have 2 frozen dinners, both steak and mashed potatoes. Different brands. One is better than the other. But you would still want both if you could. Especially if you didnt get the better one until you finished the first one. Why not cut corners and just eat the better one now? You can still enjoy the first one, it is still good.

Strange anology, I know.

Alt said:

You're not factoring in the human condition. We all have emotions that are uncontrollable for the most part. And you can draw uncertainty from anyone, even you and I. Because the fact is, none of us know. Christians may talk about faith, but as soon as that little girl stopped giggling, smiling, coming home from school- all of that faith is temporarily disregarded for raw emotion, mourning and pain. Something you love is gone, you dont stop to think about how big of a contradiction it is that you are hurting. You just be what you are, a human.

I think your idea is in poor taste. Its almost capitalising on one's mistake in their worst mental state. I know you are just trying to point a logical fallacy, i get that. This is just how I view it.

On a side not, I saw this story too. Its so sad that this happened. It is almost as if the child was using your logic (I dont mean anything negative by that) when she killed herself.

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I'm not disregarding human emotion, it's a blatant factor, and obvious they can't control it. I was purely pointing out the ridiculousness of the logical fallacy. I understand your logic, however, I have ventured too deep in the illogic and irrationality of the theistic ideology to ever draw uncertainty from myself, although, I can agree it is impossible to know what's true.

I could have easily fathomed this without a tragedy such as this to spark it. I'm not capitalizing on this unfortunate tragedy.

Alt said:

Also, I disagree here because the joy doesnt have to be one life or the other. Theoretically you can get a certain level of joy from this life on earth, and then an even greater level of that in the afterlife.

Its like: You have 2 frozen dinners, both steak and mashed potatoes. Different brands. One is better than the other. But you would still want both if you could. Especially if you didnt get the better one until you finished the first one. Why not cut corners and just eat the better one now? You can still enjoy the first one, it is still good.

Strange anology, I know.

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That's not what I said. I said it advocates the ideology of an adverse world viewpoint and behavior. I never implied joy has to be in one life or the other.

Cann!bal said:

I'm not disregarding human emotion, it's a blatant factor, and obvious they can't control it. I was purely pointing out the ridiculousness of the logical fallacy. I understand your logic, however, I have ventured too deep in the illogic and irrationality of the theistic ideology to ever draw uncertainty from myself, although, I can agree it is impossible to know what's true.

I could have easily fathomed this without a tragedy such as this to spark it. I'm not capitalizing on this unfortunate tragedy.


That's not what I said. I said it advocates the ideology of an adverse world viewpoint and behavior. I never implied joy has to be in one life or the other.

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1. Not knowing what is true and uncertainty are one in the same. Debunking theistic ideology doesnt negate that.

2. Where are you getting the idea that it advocates that? You're jumping from "I believe in an afterlife where I can spend the rest of eternity with my family in total bliss" to "Because I believe in that, I wont take my life on earth as seriously, I wont try my best at everything, and it would make more sense to just kill myself now so I can get to heaven quicker."

I cant agree with that. I dont understand why you associate the two, why do you think believing in an afterlife counteracts success in our conscious state? I mean, I will assume that most people who believe in an afterlife derived that idea from a religion. Of the religious texts that I am aware of, there are commandments, moral laws and codes, rules and standards to meet etc. Some of them are pretty steep to meet, especially with all of the temptation in modern society. Would you agree that believing in an afterlife specific to a religion could actually enhance peoples' motives and actions? I realize that "love thy neighbor" is not the same as "go do a bunch of productive things and make the world a better place" but I would argue its a starting point.

(I know spirituality and religion are not the same, there are those who believe in the afterlife for there own reasons)

None of that matters much anyway ^ I dont know a single pure Christian or Catholic. They all break there own rules, and that is to fault the ignorance in them. If they were to follow what the bible teaches, they would be in prison. How many people do you know have a tattoo of jesus on there body LOL?

Cannabis said:

Believing in an afterlife is an excuse to waste the time you have under the notion that you don't really die, you just get kicked along to the next life. So my question is, if the afterlife is so much better, why not take the express route and find out ahead of schedule?

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I myself don't believe in an afterlife, however if by "express route" you mean suicide or purposely searching for death, I'm pretty sure that's a sin in religion and you'd just end up in hell, which completely contradicts searching for death in the first place to get to heaven faster.

Chronos said:

I myself don't believe in an afterlife, however if by "express route" you mean suicide or purposely searching for death, I'm pretty sure that's a sin in religion and you'd just end up in hell, which completely contradicts searching for death in the first place to get to heaven faster.

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Glad to see somebody is paying attention.

Alt said:

1. Not knowing what is true and uncertainty are one in the same. Debunking theistic ideology doesnt negate that.

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They're synonymous, however, not the same. Let's not debate over a terminology issue, because we can only thoroughly express oh so much through vocabulary.

2. Where are you getting the idea that it advocates that? You're jumping from "I believe in an afterlife where I can spend the rest of eternity with my family in total bliss" to "Because I believe in that, I wont take my life on earth as seriously, I wont try my best at everything, and it would make more sense to just kill myself now so I can get to heaven quicker."

I cant agree with that. I dont understand why you associate the two, why do you think believing in an afterlife counteracts success in our conscious state? I mean, I will assume that most people who believe in an afterlife derived that idea from a religion. Of the religious texts that I am aware of, there are commandments, moral laws and codes, rules and standards to meet etc. Some of them are pretty steep to meet, especially with all of the temptation in modern society. Would you agree that believing in an afterlife specific to a religion could actually enhance peoples' motives and actions? I realize that "love thy neighbor" is not the same as "go do a bunch of productive things and make the world a better place" but I would argue its a starting point.

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Look at the post you initially quoted and the OP, I have already elaborated why it advocates an adverse ideology. You're misconstruing my elaboration.

It doesn't counteract success, unless one follows the ideology which the concept of an afterlife advocates.

Blatantly yes, however, religion is not a force for good and their belief would also lead to hostile and adverse motives and actions. For example; Islamic fundamentalist terrorists who thoroughly believe they'll receive 75 virgins in the afterlife after killing themselves and others in the name of their religion and god.

Chronos said:

I myself don't believe in an afterlife, however if by "express route" you mean suicide or purposely searching for death, I'm pretty sure that's a sin in religion and you'd just end up in hell, which completely contradicts searching for death in the first place to get to heaven faster.

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Don't generalize all religious beliefs into one category, it only leads to a fallacious outcome. It's popularly believed that suicide is a sin, however, I know the bible is silent on the topic of suicide.

Cann!bal said:

They're synonymous, however, not the same. Let's not debate over a terminology issue, because we can only thoroughly express oh so much through vocabulary.


Look at the post you initially quoted and the OP, I have already elaborated why it advocates an adverse ideology. You're misconstruing my elaboration.

It doesn't counteract success, unless one follows the ideology which the concept of an afterlife advocates.

Blatantly yes, however, religion is not a force for good and their belief would also lead to hostile and adverse motives and actions. For example; Islamic fundamentalist terrorists who thoroughly believe they'll receive 75 virgins in the afterlife after killing themselves and others in the name of their religion and god.


Don't generalize all religious beliefs into one category, it only leads to a fallacious outcome. It's popularly believed that suicide is a sin, however, I know the bible is silent on the topic of suicide.

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The bible may be silent on it, I've personally never read, but to say Suicide isn't a sin or frowned upon is idiotic. It's talked about all the time, not in just Christianity but also in other religions, like Catholicism, and Judaism.

Chronos said:

The bible may be silent on it, I've personally never read, but to say Suicide isn't a sin or frowned upon is idiotic. It's talked about all the time, not in just Christianity but also in other religions, like Catholicism, and Judaism.

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The bible doesn't dictate that it's a sin, so it's therefore not a sin. My claim isn't idiotic in any manner. Blatantly it's frowned upon, however, that is irrelevant of whether it's a sin or not. Catholicism is a branch of Christianity, it's not another religion.

Cann!bal said:

The bible doesn't dictate that it's a sin, so it's therefore not a sin. My claim isn't idiotic in any manner. Blatantly it's frowned upon, however, that is irrelevant of whether it's a sin or not. Catholicism is a branch of Christianity, it's not another religion.

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He's right. The bible is silent on suicide, which makes it not a sin. All sins are supposed to be laid out and explained in the bible, suicide is not mentioned.