Christmas as a Federal Holiday

[Nevermind]

The things I posted, literally, are historical facts. Even Ben Franklin, whom many consider at the forefront of the Freemasons and one of country's most iconic ideologists, who applied logic and reason to every facet of life, was a Christian. It can NOT be debated. I didn't write that shit out, it's factual knowledge.

You're not understanding my point. I am saying that they were secularists; factual knowledge. They wouldn't have written about separation of church and state if they weren't. Atheists didn't exist in that time, or at least all those considered atheists were killed. Many arguments have been made over the religions of the founding fathers. Just because they said that they were Christian, doesn't mean that they believed in the bible. Saying and believing are two entirely different things.


John Adams:

It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

In this quote from an article ratified in his administration, it shows that the government is not founded upon the Christian religion. This is obvious secularism. Though he may have been religious, he did not let that interfere with his administration.


Ethan Allen:

"That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian."

Another example of a man who shaped our country, who also happened to be a deist.


George Washington:

When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.

I cannot properly think that any religious man, of that time, would allow that audience. Plus, if religion meant anything to this man, there would have been some sign of it on his deathbed.


Benjamin Franklin:

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian."

Here he is agreeing with Christian values, yet questioning the divinity of Christ. Historians agree upon the fact that he was a deist.

 

[Burt]

Benjamin Franklin:

Here he is agreeing with Christian values, yet questioning the divinity of Christ. Historians agree upon the fact that he was a deist.

'Was' a deist, but it's widely accepted that during his later years, he embraced Christ and was devout. This isn't that much of a shocker. Ideology is great, but in his own words, this world would crumble to pieces without the moral teachings of the Bible and organized religion as a whole.

I respect your opinions, but don't skew the facts. And as for George Washington being on his death bed; he was in a fucking coma. Of course he didn't personally revive himself from his comatose state and request a clergyman. And a lot of Christians are like that. They feel that if they live their lives by the moral standards set by Christ, they're right with their maker. No need for a "last rights" service.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm an ideologist who applies logic and reasoning in every situation possible, and I embrace my beliefs. Think of it from a musical perspective. If someone chooses to be a metalhead (which some might argue is itself a religion, but I won't get in to that lol), they most likely do so because the message of the music and the lifestyle appeals to them. It gives them hope when there's none to be found in their material existences. That's how I view my faith. If it makes me feel a sense of peace and understanding, whose place is it to tell me I'm wrong? Yes, this debate has been made 'so' many times. It's getting old. If you don't understand why people have faith and aren't open-minded, you're never going to understand.

Judge not 'lest ye be judged, in turn. That's a GREAT moral teaching of the bible, regardless of it's religious contexts. I don't judge atheists and I find it wildly unfair when atheists judge me, debate or not. Right or wrong, I take great comfort in my beliefs that my loved ones are resting in an ethereal plain of existence, rather than succumbing to infinite nothingness. Just ceasing. That's depressing as fuck and I fail to see what sense of peace atheists obtain from such views. As I said, it's not my place to judge. I just don't understand, because as I said, atheists will never truly understand theists and theists will never understand atheists. To each their own, though.

My beliefs give me comfort and in turn lower my stress levels and, if everything goes smoothly, will extend my lifespan a great deal over non-believers. (Statistical fact that believers 'do' tend to live longer lives, not just something I pulled out of my ass.)

Also, I think Kevin Smith's views on religion are that of my own. If I choose to worship a deity and get comfort and joy from that, why should it matter to anyone else? I'm not imposing my views on anyone. I pray silently, don't attend church and keep it to myself.

I'm not bothering you. Don't bother me with your atheistic rhetoric. It will never work. No atheist will ever convert a true theist and no theist will ever convert a true atheist.

Even if you don't live by the substance of the Bible, I think we can agree that the moral teachings of it are quite solid. Regardless of your personal beliefs, it gives no man the right to act superior or live a life of deviance.

My whole point with all of this is that Christians aren't bothering anyone. At least the majority of us aren't. Regardless of the skewed facts that the extremist atheists want to misconstrue, this is a nation founded by God fearing men and should this nation ever crumble, it will be on those same terms. I'm quite learned when it comes to American history and all of the unbiased literature I've read supports the fact that the overwhelming majority of our founding fathers were men of God/Providence. Most of these facts are autobiographical in nature and hence, can not be disputed.

 

[Aura]

'Was' a deist, but it's widely accepted that during his later years, he embraced Christ and was devout. This isn't that much of a shocker. Ideology is great, but in his own words, this world would crumble to pieces without the moral teachings of the Bible and organized religion as a whole.

I respect your opinions, but don't skew the facts. And as for George Washington being on his death bed; he was in a fucking coma. Of course he didn't personally revive himself from his comatose state and request a clergyman. And a lot of Christians are like that. They feel that if they live their lives by the moral standards set by Christ, they're right with their maker. No need for a "last rights" service.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm an ideologist who applies logic and reasoning in every situation possible, and I embrace my beliefs. Think of it from a musical perspective. If someone chooses to be a metalhead (which some might argue is itself a religion, but I won't get in to that lol), they most likely do so because the message of the music and the lifestyle appeals to them. It gives them hope when there's none to be found in their material existences. That's how I view my faith. If it makes me feel a sense of peace and understanding, whose place is it to tell me I'm wrong? Yes, this debate has been made 'so' many times. It's getting old. If you don't understand why people have faith and aren't open-minded, you're never going to understand.

Judge not 'lest ye be judged, in turn. That's a GREAT moral teaching of the bible, regardless of it's religious contexts. I don't judge atheists and I find it wildly unfair when atheists judge me, debate or not. Right or wrong, I take great comfort in my beliefs that my loved ones are resting in an ethereal plain of existence, rather than succumbing to infinite nothingness. Just ceasing. That's depressing as fuck and I fail to see what sense of peace atheists obtain from such views. As I said, it's not my place to judge. I just don't understand, because as I said, atheists will never truly understand theists and theists will never understand atheists. To each their own, though.

My beliefs give me comfort and in turn lower my stress levels and, if everything goes smoothly, will extend my lifespan a great deal over non-believers. (Statistical fact that believers 'do' tend to live longer lives, not just something I pulled out of my ass.)

Also, I think Kevin Smith's views on religion are that of my own. If I choose to worship a deity and get comfort and joy from that, why should it matter to anyone else? I'm not imposing my views on anyone. I pray silently, don't attend church and keep it to myself.

I'm not bothering you. Don't bother me with your atheistic rhetoric. It will never work. No atheist will ever convert a true theist and no theist will ever convert a true atheist.

Even if you don't live by the substance of the Bible, I think we can agree that the moral teachings of it are quite solid. Regardless of your personal beliefs, it gives no man the right to act superior or live a life of deviance.

My whole point with all of this is that Christians aren't bothering anyone. At least the majority of us aren't. Regardless of the skewed facts that the extremist atheists want to misconstrue, this is a nation founded by God fearing men and should this nation ever crumble, it will be on those same terms. I'm quite learned when it comes to American history and all of the unbiased literature I've read supports the fact that the overwhelming majority of our founding fathers were men of God/Providence. Most of these facts are autobiographical in nature and hence, can not be disputed.

Have you read the bible in its entirety? It is certainly NOT a text of moral ground. Are you a cherrypicker or are you just ignorant of what you're advocating?

You have very misconstrued beliefs about atheists, and even about theists. And about our founding fathers. I dont care if Ben Franklin died a christian, a deist or an atheist. The thing that didnt change with his religious beliefs was that he valued secularism and applied the concept of it when forming our country. Just like the majority of our founding fathers. His religious beliefs are extremely irrelevant if you havent figured that out by now.

I really want to pick apart the rest of your post, its littered with false claims. I dont have time to do that atm, but I will say that I find it contradictory that you claim to apply "logic and reasoning to every situation possible," but when it comes to who created the universe you choose faith to explain it. Faith by definition is "belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

Edit: You're also implying that our country wasnt formed with secularism backing it. You agree that this is a christian country, and think it has always been that way and will always be that way. If you want it to stay this way, you are certainly not a rational person. You dont want equality, which is another virtue applied when our founding fathers were constructing the country. Hand in hand with secularism.

 

[Nevermind]

My whole point with all of this is that Christians aren't bothering anyone. At least the majority of us aren't. Regardless of the skewed facts that the extremist atheists want to misconstrue, this is a nation founded by God fearing men and should this nation ever crumble, it will be on those same terms. I'm quite learned when it comes to American history and all of the unbiased literature I've read supports the fact that the overwhelming majority of our founding fathers were men of God/Providence. Most of these facts are autobiographical in nature and hence, can not be disputed.

I wasn't trying to misconstrue facts at all. I did some research, at 1:00 AM I might add, and that's what I came up with. You may think you're right, and I may think I'm right, but we're arguing something that does not pertain to my main point; the secularism of the founding fathers.

The moral teachings of the bible are not in anyway solid. Stoning neighbors, acceptable slavery, anti-homosexuality; the list goes on and on. Now, there are some good moral teachings, but most of those can come from common sense. If people get their morals from a 3,000 year-old book, than they have bigger problems.

My life is based upon logic and reason. And if yours is to, than you must not be seeing all of the evidence. How can you say that logic and reason are behind you, when you are getting your morals from an ancient book, or you believe that God created the universe. There is no evidence to support any of the information in the Bible, and you must know this. I'm not in anyway tell you that you're are wrong, but step back and look at the evidence. But, what I would suggest is look at the evidence. There is a really interesting book on this topic entitled, "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. You may find yourself questioning the soundness of your own beliefs. I'm currently reading the Bible, and I'm almost done with the Old Testament, and I see no logic or reason behind any of it.

That life span "fact" is arbitrary and doesn't mean anything to me. There is no sound study done on this that proves that all believers live longer. All there is are maybe a few studies that may seem to look that way, but there would have to be much more extensive testing done to prove anything. I would like to see where you got this information, also. Could you provide a link?

It does not matter whether or not they were men of God, as I have pointed out many times. What matters is that they were secularists, and wished the church and state stay separate. This is what I am trying to get at. By the government declaring Christmas as a national holiday, they are supporting that one religion over all others, which is in no way fair or just. For our government to make right and just decisions, they have to leave their personal beliefs out of it. This seems to be the reason why gay marriage and abortion are still outlawed in many places. All I ask is that the government is a non-biased body, working for the good of the country. When they promote choose one religion over another, than they go against concept of separation of church and state.

Next time you decide to include a "fact," please cite your source. Then, we can see whether or not it actually is factual.

 

[Burt]

I'm not trying to argue. ><! I just took it that you were trying to say that this nation was built on a secular point-of-view, as in free of religion (as most would interpret it), but that's not true. Religion went hand-in-hand (and still very much does) with every aspect of the on-goings in America, especially politics. Call them blind. Call them sheep. But the voters in this country always have and always will back religious people. And don't shun me for this, but I'm just using it as a reference. Jesse Ventura (former governor of Minnesota) sought backing for the Republican ticket to run for POTUS, but was turned down because of his outspoken atheistic beliefs. My point is that no matter how much you may back science over religion, this country has an overwhelming religious population. Considering that 85%-90% of the world believes in some sort of higher power, this will never change. Again, not pulling numbers out of my ass, this is factual. Take away the secular Asian countries and the percentage of believers is significantly higher.

To summarize; 90%+ of the United States believes in God or at least some form of higher being. The majority of this country was founded by Christians (fair enough?). The majority of voters are Christians. Even the majority of the liberal Democratic party are Christians. It's not so crazy to understand why Christmas will be made into a federal holiday. Why is it so different than MLK day? A pastor who used the teachings of Christ to conquer racism and attain equality for all people who was killed over his beliefs (just like Jesus :O).

We can pick apart each other's responses, but I don't want it to come to that. I was taught to love everyone unconditionally, no matter what. I wasn't raised a Christian, I chose to be one. I don't attend church. I pray silently. I have never read the Bible (yeah, call me a hypocrite, whatever). I live by the teachings of Jesus the man. Not the stone throwing slaver stories xD. It's moral insight. If you take the Bible literally, you're missing the overall picture. I honestly have my doubts about some of the stories in the Bible, but it's a good source of moral guidance (I am familiar with most of the stories of the Bible, even though I haven't read it).

And Richard Dawkins is a whiny little spoiled British rich kid who's pissed off at the world. Sorry, but I'm all too familiar with him. Although I do agree with one thing he said on The Daily Show with John Stewart. That it will take a combination of both scientists and religious zealots to destroy this world. The scientists will create the technology and the zealots will use it to destroy humanity. There are evils on both sides. I'm not a zealot. I don't preach. I don't judge. I embrace tolerance. And I'm sure you have no intentions of making an atomic device x) lol.

Proof that Richard Dawkins is whiny and bitchy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlLyoKFq9G8

If you can't trust the word of the South Park creators, who the fuck can you trust?!

 

[Nevermind]

I'm not trying to argue. ><! I just took it that you were trying to say that this nation was built on a secular point-of-view, as in free of religion (as most would interpret it), but that's not true. Religion went hand-in-hand (and still very much does) with every aspect of the on-goings in America, especially politics. Call them blind. Call them sheep. But the voters in this country always have and always will back religious people. And don't shun me for this, but I'm just using it as a reference. Jesse Ventura (former governor of Minnesota) sought backing for the Republican ticket to run for POTUS, but was turned down because of his outspoken atheistic beliefs. My point is that no matter how much you may back science over religion, this country has an overwhelming religious population. Considering that 85%-90% of the world believes in some sort of higher power, this will never change. Again, not pulling numbers out of my ass, this is factual. Take away the secular Asian countries and the percentage of believers is significantly higher.

To summarize; 90%+ of the United States believes in God or at least some form of higher being. The majority of this country was founded by Christians (fair enough?). The majority of voters are Christians. Even the majority of the liberal Democratic party are Christians. It's not so crazy to understand why Christmas will be made into a federal holiday. Why is it so different than MLK day? A pastor who used the teachings of Christ to conquer racism and attain equality for all people who was killed over his beliefs (just like Jesus :O).

We can pick apart each other's responses, but I don't want it to come to that. I was taught to love everyone unconditionally, no matter what. I wasn't raised a Christian, I chose to be one. I don't attend church. I pray silently. I have never read the Bible (yeah, call me a hypocrite, whatever). I live by the teachings of Jesus the man. Not the stone throwing slaver stories xD. It's moral insight. If you take the Bible literally, you're missing the overall picture. I honestly have my doubts about some of the stories in the Bible, but it's a good source of moral guidance (I am familiar with most of the stories of the Bible, even though I haven't read it).

And Richard Dawkins is a whiny little spoiled British rich kid who's pissed off at the world. Sorry, but I'm all too familiar with him. Although I do agree with one thing he said on The Daily Show with John Stewart. That it will take a combination of both scientists and religious zealots to destroy this world. The scientists will create the technology and the zealots will use it to destroy humanity. There are evils on both sides. I'm not a zealot. I don't preach. I don't judge. I embrace tolerance. And I'm sure you have no intentions of making an atomic device x) lol.

Proof that Richard Dawkins is whiny and bitchy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlLyoKFq9G8

If you can't trust the word of the South Park creators, who the fuck can you trust?!

I understand why Christmas is a federal holiday, I'm just saying that it's unfair. Government shouldn't be based off of religious views. Also, saying that the government was based on the Christian religion is false. I used this quote about John Adams earlier.

It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

I'm sorry to say, but you're wrong on that one. The government was founded by secularists, and there's nothing that can change that.

Also, that video means nothing to me.

 

[Sinthetta]

I don't believe in God but I honestly couldn't care less if Christmas is/isn't a federal holiday.

As long as I receive gifts from others than I'm fine.

 

[Nevermind]

I don't believe in God but I honestly couldn't care less if Christmas is/isn't a federal holiday.

As long as I receive gifts from others than I'm fine.

Why do you think it's okay for the government to favor one religion?