Discussing Suicide

The late Jean Amery, in his masterful work 'On Suicide', claimed that the majority of the population progresses through their decision making with the "logic of life" in mind. That is, they begin from a conditioned supposition that having a life is good and so maintaining one and keeping one at all costs is sacred. This is not simply in a religious context, but down to the core of the very values that keep our species, its hierarchies and systems, its family units and social circles, churning along. Anti-suicide crusaders are not uniformly right wing loons. In fact, it is likely that one would not encounter any more conservatives than liberals within the ranks of such organizations. And yet, from these widely respected tanks of thought one is treated to the same sort of data skewing and guilt pushing found at pro-life rallies. With regard to suicide, this community works together through enormous political divides to take away a person's ability to quickly and safely end their own life. They have decided for you that your life is worth keeping whether you think so or not, no matter how sick you are, no matter how lonely or grief-stricken you are, no matter, no matter. The executive decision works to take away your greatest liberty, which is an individual's choice to discontinue being.

The prohibition is not directly carried out by jail sentences and fines. Rather, we have subtly given the reigns to the medical complex who, working in conjunction with officials, confines and medicates a potential suicide against his will (or, later, confines and medicates him post-attempt). Operating from the assumption that taking one's life is inherently irrational, the suicide is automatically given the status of an insane person. For me, this is the crux of the entire debate. The majority of people, drilled with lay speak about the sanctity of life from the time of birth, cannot extract themselves from that cocoon of thought. In this country (U.S.) and beyond, how are we to have an intelligent discussion about suicide when it is so broadly looked at as an act of insanity? 

Collectively, we are so wounded by the prospect of death that we cannot fathom another's desire for it. We cannot accept that many people choose non-existence while sound of mind. 

This places us, intellectually, in about the sixth grade.

Insanity isn't the term for this, it's mental illness -- it's the state of homeostasis that's ultimately destructive. I think we can all think of someone who has committed or attempted suicide who we wouldn't label insane. Insane is a misnomer.

I think it's unfair to classify someone as mentally ill or disturbed for suicidal thoughts and whatnot. I've fantasized about killing myself some and I'm fairly certain I'm not mentally ill.

As you pointed out, we view life as innately good, but there clearly is a biological will to subsist. No one just kills themselves without tribulation. There's always a sad, depressing rationale connected to people who try and do commit suicide.

Although, I do think there is a reasonable defense to be made for suicide. In the wake of painstaking terminal illness and in the wake of crippling physical disability, the idea of suicide can be very alluring. There are transparently rational reasons for suicide or euthanasia. And frankly, what someone wants to do with themselves isn't exactly anyone's business but their own.

I didn't read any of that but I know that suicide only crosses the mind of weak individuals. There are some exceptions.

I am not against suicide nor do I think it is a cowardly act necessarily. I think its pretty callous and unfair for people to judge others for committing suicide. Simply put, you could not know what mental pain that person was going through and you really have no perspective to judge whether that person was a coward or not. I don't like how almost everything you see on TV or online says that suicide should never be an option. A statement like that lacks a lot of perspective and is just dishonest in my opinion.

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I have thought long about selfishness. One way to explain my conclusion is that, it is selfish, all things considered, to put a minor interest of my own ahead of a serious interest of someone else. Another way to put it, and one that captures more dimensions of the problem, is to say that it is selfish to not display the generosity that can reasonably be expected by people in a particular relationship. [/font]

And this is the essential disagreement as to the selfishness of suicide: whether it is reasonable to expect someone to continue to live a miserable life for the sake of the feelings of his friends and family. I suspect that most people cannot imagine that life could be so bad that one's suffering could outweigh that of one's friends left behind. It may be impossible to accurately measure or assess the difference in suffering between those who want to commit suicide, and those who mourn the deceased from suicide. Almost certainly, it varies. 

An interesting outcome of this is that, by this definition, the suicide of a person with NO friends or relatives is not selfish at all, even if he is only experiencing slight suffering. On the other hand, the suicide of a person with many friends and relatives may be very selfish, regardless of the magnitude of suffering. But certainly it is a bit rich to assume that, in all cases, the suffering of the would-be suicide is outweighed by the possible suffering of his friends and family from being deprived of his company. In fact, in many cases, it must be selfish - even indecent - for a suicidal person's friends and family to expect him/her to continue living, if his/her suffering is so powerful in magnitude.

Suicidal people who feel that their lives are not worth living, but, nonetheless, should continue living for the sake of saving their friends/family from pain. Is this merely what is expected of them? If one's suffering is so great that one prays for death every day, and yet continues to live to spare one's friends and family the pain of the lack of one's company, we must certainly say that for that person, merely living is a selfless act.

@"Cann!bal" 

Some say that suicide is simply a way for nature to weed out the weak, what do you think @Envy, what's your personal opinion?

Nab said:

Some say that suicide is simply a way for nature to weed out the weak, what do you think @Envy, what's your personal opinion?

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You're assuming that nature wasn't responsible for the weak in the first place. In turn, omitting the factor of a mental illness. In that case, nature has nothing to do with it, nurture and social-environment does. The more benefits we are exposed to as children, the more striking anything else is. A man who was born poor in the worst part of the planet won't find further hardships, such as the murder of all his loved ones, to be suicide-worthy. On the other hand, a man born rich and spoiled, will find even the smallest things like a break-up to be suicide-worthy. Thus, it is we, humans, who weed out the "weak". It is often the poorest and the weakest, who are the strongest. Who could of thought that happiness is so wicked?

Envy said:

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I have thought long about selfishness. One way to explain my conclusion is that, it is selfish, all things considered, to put a minor interest of my own ahead of a serious interest of someone else. Another way to put it, and one that captures more dimensions of the problem, is to say that it is selfish to not display the generosity that can reasonably be expected by people in a particular relationship. [/font]

And this is the essential disagreement as to the selfishness of suicide: whether it is reasonable to expect someone to continue to live a miserable life for the sake of the feelings of his friends and family. I suspect that most people cannot imagine that life could be so bad that one's suffering could outweigh that of one's friends left behind. It may be impossible to accurately measure or assess the difference in suffering between those who want to commit suicide, and those who mourn the deceased from suicide. Almost certainly, it varies. 

An interesting outcome of this is that, by this definition, the suicide of a person with NO friends or relatives is not selfish at all, even if he is only experiencing slight suffering. On the other hand, the suicide of a person with many friends and relatives may be very selfish, regardless of the magnitude of suffering. But certainly it is a bit rich to assume that, in all cases, the suffering of the would-be suicide is outweighed by the possible suffering of his friends and family from being deprived of his company. In fact, in many cases, it must be selfish - even indecent - for a suicidal person's friends and family to expect him/her to continue living, if his/her suffering is so powerful in magnitude.

Suicidal people who feel that their lives are not worth living, but, nonetheless, should continue living for the sake of saving their friends/family from pain. Is this merely what is expected of them? If one's suffering is so great that one prays for death every day, and yet continues to live to spare one's friends and family the pain of the lack of one's company, we must certainly say that for that person, merely living is a selfless act.

@"Cann!bal" 

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I think you make some great points; however, I would go even further to say any expectation of them to subsist is innately selfish. Regardless of the depressed's magnitude of pain.

If we boil suicide and selfishness down long enough, I think we will find that selfishness is irrelevant -- that in the presence of someone who's sincerely considering suicide it won't matter. What will matter is reminding them what a gift existence is and how beautiful life can be. This conversation is often overlooked or clouded by the irrational and destructive mindset of someone who is going to attempt suicide, and this dialogue is quite essential to any ideal suicidal exhibition, assuming that exists.

And to add on from my last post, while I do think there is a reasonable defense for suicide, I think the defense for living is much more powerful in most circumstances.

Envy said:

The late Jean Amery, in his masterful work 'On Suicide', claimed that the majority of the population progresses through their decision making with the "logic of life" in mind. That is, they begin from a conditioned supposition that having a life is good and so maintaining one and keeping one at all costs is sacred. This is not simply in a religious context, but down to the core of the very values that keep our species, its hierarchies and systems, its family units and social circles, churning along. Anti-suicide crusaders are not uniformly right wing loons. In fact, it is likely that one would not encounter any more conservatives than liberals within the ranks of such organizations. And yet, from these widely respected tanks of thought one is treated to the same sort of data skewing and guilt pushing found at pro-life rallies. With regard to suicide, this community works together through enormous political divides to take away a person's ability to quickly and safely end their own life. They have decided for you that your life is worth keeping whether you think so or not, no matter how sick you are, no matter how lonely or grief-stricken you are, no matter, no matter. The executive decision works to take away your greatest liberty, which is an individual's choice to discontinue being.

The prohibition is not directly carried out by jail sentences and fines. Rather, we have subtly given the reigns to the medical complex who, working in conjunction with officials, confines and medicates a potential suicide against his will (or, later, confines and medicates him post-attempt). Operating from the assumption that taking one's life is inherently irrational, the suicide is automatically given the status of an insane person. For me, this is the crux of the entire debate. The majority of people, drilled with lay speak about the sanctity of life from the time of birth, cannot extract themselves from that cocoon of thought. In this country (U.S.) and beyond, how are we to have an intelligent discussion about suicide when it is so broadly looked at as an act of insanity? 

Collectively, we are so wounded by the prospect of death that we cannot fathom another's desire for it. We cannot accept that many people choose non-existence while sound of mind. 

This places us, intellectually, in about the sixth grade.

Click to expand...

I'm going to leave my response brief since I'm in class, but I have a couple of thoughts regarding suicide.

I consider suicide to be the ultimate act of courage. Although it is a display of deprivation of hope and surrender to life, and I strongly disagree with such concepts, you have to be very courageous to make a permanent decision that will have implications on anyone who ever knew you, or heard your name, and I believe that is in part why some people do it. They don't want to be invisible anymore.

Like I said, I am the last person who would ever give up. It's not in my genetics. If I say I'm going to do something, then consider it done. It's just a matter of time that it takes to get through the process, and then you'll see. But in my middle school days I can recall being upset to the point where I'd wonder what people would do if I died, how they'd react, and who would miss me. Obviously I never took these thoughts into deep contemplation, but I believe all of us have had said thoughts at one point or another. It's just that some people don't have the strength to push through the lows. Either they don't have a vision of what they want for their future that would drive them out of whatever slump they're in, or they just flat out gave up.

Not going to read everything because I have my own personal thoughts on suicide.

6 people from my town/school/close friends have killed themselves in the past 3 years. Its been a very rough time for me, heck I have tried killing myself plenty of times. I knew their lives, what they were going through and why they did it, and honestly suicide is a way to leave your problems forever, its a way for people to think they are doing everyone a favor. In all reality suicide is the stupidest thing a human being could do, I have tried and failed plenty of times and that is a sign that I should be here.
Suicide has an image on it like its a mental illness, mental disability and just straight up drug/alcohol problems.
3 of the 6 people who have killed themselves were not even doing drugs or drinking alcohol.

IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU WERE RAISED.
I do not believe no one will truly find out the main reason behind suicide, its different every time and I do not think its discussable because not one person is right about suicide.

I have noticed that every time there is a suicide,one thing that keeps getting repeated is how selfish the person must have been. I’ve heard this word “selfish” get tossed around time and time again when someone takes their life. And, quite frankly, I’ve had enough of it. It’s time we stop calling a mental disconnect a personality flaw. Being selfish, in our society, is generally seen as a bad thing. So when you call suicide selfish, you’re calling it a bad thing. And it is, but not for the reasons you are implying.


[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Suicide [/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]is[/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] bad, it’s awful. It is the ending of a life. A living, breathing, thinking, feeling person. It steals loved ones from us. Let it be stated that I am not, in any way, trying to lessen the pain of those who have lost someone to suicide. Death, losing someone, is horrendous and emotional and sad, no matter what the cause. But we have got to stop calling someone who commits suicide selfish. Someone who ends their life is going through a mental struggle we should feel blessed and lucky to not understand.[/font]


To not be in a suicidal mindset, to be healthy mentally, is something most of us take for granted. Suicide isn’t something that simply happens. Suicide is a result of someone being so lost that they think ending their life is the only option. It’s not something someone decides to do one day. It’s something that happens when someone loses a long, seemingly endless, internal battle.




Suicide doesn’t happen to selfish people, it happens to depressed ones. We can’t keep calling something that people have no control over selfish. It’s selfish of us to tell them “feel better” or “just be happy.” Because when you say those things, you’re not thinking of the person you’re saying them too; you’re thinking of yourself. You want them to get better but you aren’t thinking about how difficult that may be for them. Depression is not something you can just get over and depressed is not something you can just stop being. Depression is a chemical imbalance and sometimes it knocks you down before you can catch yourself. And sometimes the push it gives you is too forceful to pull yourself back up.


Suicide isn’t selfish. It’s sad, yes, but not selfish. It’s selfish of those left behind to try to make light of the deceased’s situation. Suicide is not a selfish act. It’s not for attention. It’s for relief. As sad as that sounds, it is. Someone who commits suicide, who goes> all in> for an act that takes it all away, is looking for a way to feel better. At the point when someone is suicidal, they aren’t thinking about other people, but they aren’t thinking about themselves either. (Which, by definition, rules out their SELFishness.) They are lost, confused, and consumed by a dark feeling that takes away their ability to truly think about the world around them. They get swept up in a bad place and, sometimes, unfortunately, can’t find their way out.


It’s hard to understand how someone could take their life, I get it. I’ve been there. Losing someone to suicide is not fun and you just want answers. But we have to rejoice in the fact that we can’t answer the “why” question ourselves. Because, if we could, we’d be in that same, terrible place our loved one was. We’d understand what it’s like to think suicide is the only option. We’d also realize that it’s not selfish. But I truly hope that you never understand those emotions and realize the confusion behind them.


We, the people left behind, can feel upset and sad and mad and all other types of emotions. But we’ve got to stop trivializing suicide and simply writing it off as selfish. It’s so much more than that and the feelings run so much deeper than that.


So next time you hear someone call suicide selfish, I urge you to tell them to think twice. Tell them they’re lucky to not be able to understand it. Lucky to be able to think of it as selfish, not as necessary, or the only option. Lucky to not be fighting and maybe losing a battle. Lucky to be here and be alive. 


That's just my 2 cents.

I read a bit of everybody's response. But as I do have my own personal thoughts.
It's tough to go through some things. Everybody has their own weaknesses. Like, some people actually have been through so much, and still got out of the stage of depression. Others, the opposite went. The have been through their own problems, for a long time and ended it. Me, I have tried killing myself, several times. I used to self harm. Everybody has their own reactions to things. It doesn't mean, oh suicide is for the weak. Well yeah it is, but the problems have caused them to be weak. They couldn't take the sadness anymore. That's why they ended it.
Sadness is one of the most worst feelings to endure. I used to cry almost every single night, nobody was there for me. I wanted to be happyx even when I tried my hardest I couldn't. I tried everything to make my ways out of it. All you think is negative. People tell you to stay strong and such. It doesn't help. It isn't that easy. Sadness is a part of your life. That's why suicide is so common. The darkness fills your mind with negativity, and thoughts of taking your own life.

People will be strong, and the sadness, and the overwhelming problems in their life will take over whatever happiness people have. The thoughts of somebody loving them, or caring for them, are doubtful. You begin to feel lost, and you start to regret everything. Then you attempt it. Suicide is a very depressing subject. I have had too many people commit, and it isn't easy, they were so very close to me.

Depression is a very serious mental illness. It overtakes the mind and makes you insane from the sadness.

I think the only think worth commiting suicide over is if you're stranded in a jungle and you want to die painless or captured by ISIS or some shit and don't want the slow suffering.