If you are using this logic to prove god exist then you MUST believe in the all other gods of all other religions. It doesn't make sense does it? God is an icon, a representation of something. Not a physical / spiritual being. The bible was probably written by someone the early A.D era then found by somebody else years later, they probably thought that book came from a "God" (remember they had not much science then so a "god" or physical icon was their answer to many common questions.) The mere fact that a logical thinker would believe in such things as a physical entity of the 'creator of man kind' is disturbing. Now if you're viewing god as more of a spirit inside you sort of thing (good vs. bad etc) then I have no issues with that, although that isn't called god it's called your conscience.
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I can prove God exists
- Thread starter Michael
- Start date
Executioner said:
Precisely as Poop said, who created God? Your hypothesis is completely void of the question. Plus, your understanding of the Big Bang is poor, misconstrued, and you're making a misrepresentation of the Big Bang.
I suggest you study the basics of quantum physics, which is study of physics at a microscopic level. Quantum physicists have observed atoms doing seemingly incomprehensible and impossible things and this is merely at an atomic level, just imagine what would happen at an infinitesimal atomic level. Just imagine the reaction that would happen with an infinitesimally small torrid iota of mass; that being the iota of the Big Bang. It makes perfect sense.
Alt said:Well, these are man-made laws. I had to stop after step 3 because of this. Mathematics is just as fabricated as time, both are systems created by someone somewhere to put everyone on the same page about something. Plus, perception weighs in here whether you would like to admit it or not. I barely got passed step one. It isnt absolutely true that I dont know if I believe in absolute truth or not. If something truely is absolutely true, then it cannot change over time, can it? The question iteself is a matter of opinion, thats why you have 3 choices. At any given time my answer could be different, so how could I have an absolutely true answer that changes? There's a gap there, its a bit of a contradiction. The concept of absolute truth to me is very pushy, too clean cut, and is annoying. It doesnt allow people much room to breath, and again if its a matter of technical opinion, I dont know if there is any one topic that every single person that has ever existed can agree upon, which would by definition fill what Absolute Truth is, am I correct? For the most part the same questions wouldnt apply, and even if they did, everyone would have to be able to prove their answer individually while being held to the same standard of using Absolute Truth to prove Absolute Truth. It is literally a regress argument.
Anyway, this is your attempt to prove that god exists from a philosophical standpoint, and that is very key to note. All you have is words here. Nothing more, which to me doesnt amount to much considering you're claiming and advocating the existance of a deity. Discretion and skepticism are key here. If someone tells you the paint is wet, you will touch it before agreeing with them. Lets say that hypothetically, your life depended on it. You are not fucking around with philosphy to prove that it is or isnt wet, you're going to find out the only real sure way. And that is to make physical, conscious contact with it. We all use this logic everyday for everything. If someone of medical expertise tells you that you have a brain tumor and that you will need to undergo multiple surgeries. Arent you going to want to see the results of the MRI first? To have them explain everything in as much understandable detail as possible? Furthermore, are you going rely on god, or the surgeon to fix this? We all know the answers to these questions and its time that people start being honest. Divine intervention does not exist. If it does, its not from any god that anyone on this Earth worships. And that statement is flirting with absolute truth itself. Nobody wants to admit it though.
I need not waste more time re-iterating the same mountains of proof I have repeatedly presented to people of faith that completely decimates every argument they have given me. At this point its cognitive dissonance. I hope that in my lifetime we are free of the burden religion has bestowed upon humanity for so long, and the arguments are over, and the brain washing has ceased. I dont know if that will ever happened to be honest. Thats all I have to say for now, but I'll leave you with this picture. Hopefully you will see how this is tied to divine intervention:
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Its one or the other; prayer does not exist because divine intervention exists, or prayer does not exist because divine intervention does not exist. I can prove its the second one, because I can prove that divine intervention of (your god) does not exist. But either way, prayer is useless. And if prayer is useless, then on the human end of the relationship, divine intervention doesnt exist. And if you are of faith, I would cling to that theory, of divine intervention not existing. Because if you want to argue it does, you will be held responsible for explaining all of the things that happen in this world, by the hand of your god(s). And if you cannot do so then you cannot make the claim. Regardless of your answers to my questions, you will be forced to change your understanding and interpretation of how god works. Unless of course you already agree with me, or can prove me wrong.
Of what faith do you consider yourself? If you dont label yourself any religion, explain what you're relationship and understanding of god is. It would help me to know who I am dealing with here.
Hi, I read your last post and I was completely unaware of the replies that have been posted on this thread, apologies for all inconvenience.
I would like to start off by pointing out, if you do not know that God is proven; logically. Why should such doubt exist? “The fool has said in his heart, There is no God” (Psalm 14:1). This scripture is repeated in Psalm 53:1. What follows will explain why God calls atheists “fools.” Matter and energy can be neither created nor destroyed. There are no natural processes that can alter either matter or energy in this way.
Thermodynamics; There is absolutely no new matter or energy coinciding with existence, and there is no matter or energy leaving existence. Those who state the universe came to be violate the first law of thermodynamics, which was also created by a very active community of Science who are now supposedly ignoring it? In summary, this law plainly demonstrates that the universe, and all matter and energy within it, must have had a divine origin a specific moment in which it was created by someone who was all-powerful.
If you didn't know, prayer has also been proven scientifically. The proof is ample. A study of 90,000+ people in a rural community had 50% less deaths from heart disease then those who do not attend the Church. 53% also had fewer suicides. Many doctors believe that if they prayed with their patients before and after surgery or before administering a course of powerful drugs, this treatment might assist in the patient's recovery. There is also more proof which I will post when I get back home, leaving to school now. Praying for you!!
Michael said:
It is indeed foolish to claim there is no God, because there isn't enough evidence to dictate that to be indeed true. However, it's also foolish to claim that god is real, because there isn't enough evidence to dictate that to be indeed true. The likewise case can be made for any claim, no matter how rational or irrational it is.
The entire argument is an argument from ignorance fallacy. This is simply a god of the gaps argument. It provides the logic we don't know, therefore god. Precisely like how we primitively explained the rising of the sun and moon to be the gods that dictated the harvest and health of the people by how many sacrifices are made to them. How we primitively explained natural disasters, famine and plague to be the work of god because he was displeased. However, modern science has filled this gap of ignorance. We can now explain these phenomena logically and rationally.
It does not plainly demonstrate that the universe must have a divine origin.
Contradictory studies have shown prayer does absolutely nothing.
Praying for others is absolutely pointless for it intervenes with their freewill, so that proves how ridiculous these studies are. Don't bother praying for him.
I doubt the existance of god because I was born not believing in one, just as you and every one else reading this. It was only until I was manipulated as an undeveloped adolescant that I had heard of god, and because I was in such a fragile stage of growth, I believed. I had no understanding of logic or reason, and I could not make rational decisions on my own. Its called brain washing. I can apply the same to most of you who believe in god, for you were raised or at least influenced as a child, similar to Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny. We are all born atheists, Michael.
As for matter, our understanding isnt fully developed, but that is no reason to fill in the blanks with "god." 500 years ago everyone "knew" the earth was flat. At one point, it was common knowledge that the Earth was the center of the Universe. We know now, that these things are not true. If the laws of physics you are citing vary over time, and there is evidence to show that that is the case, then who are you to say for certain that matter cant be created or destroyed? We know it can be manipulated. There's actually some slight evidence that the electromagnetic coupling constant may have changed over the life of the universe. If it changed a little over the time we can see, maybe it changed a lot at some point, which means that a lot of energy could have been created.
Now, you were quoting the bible. So based off of the bible, how old is the earth, when you factor everything in? 6000-ish years I believe? Why is there no mention of anything before that? Dinosaurs? Isnt it funny how you're using science to make your case, and not the bible?
You said : "In summary, this law plainly demonstrates that the universe, and all matter and energy within it, must have had a divine origin a specific moment in which it was created by someone who was all-powerful."
I wasnt aware that was part of the law. Hmm. I will admit I am out of my realm here. Im not a scientist. I do know better than to fill in the gaps with god. Are you implying that lack of knowledge is equivalent to god? Because the laws you are presenting here are not implying anything of god, just of the universe as we currently know it.
As for the prayer thing, I wish you would attack my logic instead of referencing some random study without crediting it to any organization or funding. Its irrelevant to me regardless. Im using logic, you're using a study conducted by humans with no credibility, and all the room in the universe for bias, coincidence and randomness. I too have seen studies, and they have had the exact opposite effect, or no effect at all. Would you like to be a personal experiment? Why dont we expose you high forms of radiation, give you cancer, and then put it in gods hands. It will be a test of your faith, and of his power. No doctors, no treatment. By the way, I always had trouble understanding how a divine entity, a deity, or god could have a gender. Does god have a penis, male hormones, and the rest of the works too?
As for matter, our understanding isnt fully developed, but that is no reason to fill in the blanks with "god." 500 years ago everyone "knew" the earth was flat. At one point, it was common knowledge that the Earth was the center of the Universe. We know now, that these things are not true. If the laws of physics you are citing vary over time, and there is evidence to show that that is the case, then who are you to say for certain that matter cant be created or destroyed? We know it can be manipulated. There's actually some slight evidence that the electromagnetic coupling constant may have changed over the life of the universe. If it changed a little over the time we can see, maybe it changed a lot at some point, which means that a lot of energy could have been created.
Now, you were quoting the bible. So based off of the bible, how old is the earth, when you factor everything in? 6000-ish years I believe? Why is there no mention of anything before that? Dinosaurs? Isnt it funny how you're using science to make your case, and not the bible?
You said : "In summary, this law plainly demonstrates that the universe, and all matter and energy within it, must have had a divine origin a specific moment in which it was created by someone who was all-powerful."
I wasnt aware that was part of the law. Hmm. I will admit I am out of my realm here. Im not a scientist. I do know better than to fill in the gaps with god. Are you implying that lack of knowledge is equivalent to god? Because the laws you are presenting here are not implying anything of god, just of the universe as we currently know it.
As for the prayer thing, I wish you would attack my logic instead of referencing some random study without crediting it to any organization or funding. Its irrelevant to me regardless. Im using logic, you're using a study conducted by humans with no credibility, and all the room in the universe for bias, coincidence and randomness. I too have seen studies, and they have had the exact opposite effect, or no effect at all. Would you like to be a personal experiment? Why dont we expose you high forms of radiation, give you cancer, and then put it in gods hands. It will be a test of your faith, and of his power. No doctors, no treatment. By the way, I always had trouble understanding how a divine entity, a deity, or god could have a gender. Does god have a penis, male hormones, and the rest of the works too?
Michael said:
Who is ignoring this? Your 9th grade lab partner? The fallacy you're using here is the same one that billions of people have been deluded by for thousands of years. "I can't explain it right now, therefore it must be god." The only thing that proves is more study is required.
The only thing that proves is the power of the placebo effect.
I am a Christian, and I do believe in god, but I must say that in trying to prove existence to non-believers by referencing the bible, and basing your final pieces on the bible is a matter of faith in the end. Non-believers don't believe in the bible, therefor making your entire argument based on faith.
You did a fantastic job putting together the thread though.
You did a fantastic job putting together the thread though.
I truly believe he does as well.
May not seem like the best personal assurance, but I've had two religious Gamertags and got them in two significant months. There has been so much more thrown my way also.
December (self explanatory) - Catholic
February (birth month) - Salvation
May not seem like the best personal assurance, but I've had two religious Gamertags and got them in two significant months. There has been so much more thrown my way also.
December (self explanatory) - Catholic
February (birth month) - Salvation
Michael said:
I hate to capitalize on that post and your response, because it seems so innocent, but I have to. This is a perfect, genuine example of the placebo that has over time been formed within the reputation and "abilities" of god. Surely, god wouldnt "assist" in getting him 2 religious gamertags, yet allow innocent people to starve, suffer and die everyday. I mean, you guys make some pretty radical claims. You should have more respect for your beliefs than that, because at this point its simply nonsense either way you dice it up. There is no way that you can possibly justify to me that god "gave him a sign" by setting him up for those gamertags. Not through logic.
And you Michael, you either are as clueless as him, or you gave him false positive reinforcement, knowing god probably had nothing to do with it, and you are just in the wrong. This is a disgusting cycle. You think this lone example is irrelevant, its not.
Please dont be offended, im being honest without trying to insult you guys. Im not criticizing you as people, just this particular belief. So I hope you understand that.
You deny that laws of logic, mathematics, science, and absolute morality are universal yet you base your life on their universality. Unless you reconsider your stand on this matter, your road to this thread's proof that God exists ends here. I pray that you understand that thinking this way is inconsistent and irrational, and you return to seek the truth.
If you've reconsidered and affirm that these laws are universal, proceed to Step 8.
You used a mathematical example for the law of morality, it renders your entire argument invalid.
If you've reconsidered and affirm that these laws are universal, proceed to Step 8.
You used a mathematical example for the law of morality, it renders your entire argument invalid.
I believe in God in my own way and my views shall never change. I believe he does exist but is not a person more of a force something bigger than anything ever he did not only create Earth he created the Universe and everything inside it. You can always relate back to science how the earth was created and where planets came from but where did Space actually come from it hasn't just been here for millions and millions of years, there has got to be some point where it was created and that's where I believe it all started everything has a mean behind it. It didn't just poof out of thin air.
My view anyway.
My view anyway.
Freedom said:
Have you ever heard of a probability formula? Factoring diversity and unlimited possibility, dont sit here and tell me that coincidences "dont add up like that." They're measurable. You're talking nonsense as if it were fact. Look at the similarities between Lee Harvy Oswald and John Wilkes Booth. There are multiple coincidences in just that one comparison, and that is the direct result of the formula I just described.
Are you implying that coincidences dont exist? If they do, how do you differentiate them from non-coincidences? Are non-coincidences always the work of god?
Put a bit more effort into justifying your views, I just cant respect the heresay you've given me thus far.
Phenom said:
Applying your same logic, how do liken that our creator came to be?
Im perfectly okay with the concept of a creator. A god, no. Religion, definitely not.
Freedom said:
Thats convenient. You made the thread, it is your responsibility to tend to it. Im dissapointed.
Alt said:
What? Michael made it. Honestly I haven't argued with an atheist since what I've seen in the world, and before then never even bothered much.
I believe all the other talk is simply deceptive.
@Phenom even though you scammed me Catholic. You're going to have to work this out with Him.
Freedom said:
My mistake, I thought I was talking to the same guy the whole time and you changed your username lol.
When did I say I was an atheist? And what do you mean since what you've seen in the world?
You believe all other talk on the matter is deceptive? Thats a scary ideology. Lets make huge decisions about our origin and settle on them, refusing any further analysis or discussion.
I guess you could say going to back to where it all began the first existance of the space ever being created, where has God came from who created him, who created someone to make everything in this universe and Planet. The real answer Is we will never know. You can just keep going back and back and back where did this come from and so on. And then you will hit the last line, well who created God? That's the only thing that stumbles me. I do believe in a force out there, not sure if I believe in Heaven made for harmony however I do believe in Hell as there have been a lot more proven facts of Evil presence on this earth such as Spirits, Ghosts, Demons.
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