What makes school "worth it"?

[Plague]

So you have highschool then college, a lot of money and time for a couple pieces of paper that they say make you worth something. While you can do the same things without any of them if not more as you'll have the experience they don't because they worked so hard for that piece of paper.

For example: Friend of mine just finished college and is at his mom's house looking for a job. No house, no car, no experience, or anything besides that his degree. Whereas I have had multiple vehicles, lived in quite a few places and a decent bit of experience in construction/landscaping. He will be lucky to start with flipping burgers for $8 an hour while I'm making $15-20 because I've had the work experience.



To the point though, what makes the "educational" system worth it to you? No real world lessons or anything worthwhile for a decent job. You can do the same thing without it and actually be better off than someone fresh out of college with there shiny new degree.

 

[Mal]

RE: What makes school "worth it"?

Depends on what degree you pursue in my opinion.

Im hopefully doing Computer Engineering with a concentration in Political Science, many companies like to hire computer engineers straight out of college if not WHILE in college.

And all with a decent starting median salary of 105k a year.

My education hopefully at MIT will not only be worth it for the money but for the fulfillment of knowledge.

But I do agree that some people get useless degress. Just my own two cents

 

[velox]

In short, I guess people think it's 'safe'. It's a route everyone knows and is filled with (potentially false) promises. Probably also the path their parents took and they don't want to disappoint for not listening to them or risking becoming a failure in their eyes.

 

[coltie2]

Because you have had the education in a field. That's what makes it worth it. Sure you don't "have" to go... But if you read almost any good job requirement it states you need a minimum of this degree or this many years in a field. It helps sort out people. Literally that is it. Like right now if I went to apply for a coding job they would laugh until I get my degree. The $$$$ is what's worth it. Sure you start out slower and don't have as much because you have been in school... But the $$$ in the end is what is worth it.

---

BUT as others have said not everyone gets important degrees.... But in the end you still have the degree to put on a resume and company's look at that like you a entire different person

---

And you have to think what a decent job is. Like you won't be making 120k plus a year early without college

---

But in the end just follow your heart

 

[Revo]

I can meet up with friends and get a free bus ride there plus they got heating unlike the shed i live in

 

[Space Time]

Because that piece of paper gives pathway to everything in life.
Although it is true, even without degrees and shit you can get a job and still make money, but the degree gives you a better chance.
It is just something many people do and are advised to do. People don't make their own choices in our times. They allow others to do so.
There are millions looking to work and get jobs. The only reason people are flipping burgers is because jobs are hard to get and as time goes on the competition gets harder.
Not everyone is lucky enough to be making a stable amount of money. Many aren't given a direction and School/College gives them this.

 

[Cann!bal]

It wasn't. That's why I left Junior year of high school. I still hold it has one of the best decisions I've ever made.

 

[Freckle]

that your friends are there everything else is ughhh

---

or all the girls that are there make it pretty worth it

 

[Anomaly]

So you have highschool then college, a lot of money and time for a couple pieces of paper that they say make you worth something. While you can do the same things without any of them if not more as you'll have the experience they don't because they worked so hard for that piece of paper.

For example: Friend of mine just finished college and is at his mom's house looking for a job. No house, no car, no experience, or anything besides that his degree. Whereas I have had multiple vehicles, lived in quite a few places and a decent bit of experience in construction/landscaping. He will be lucky to start with flipping burgers for $8 an hour while I'm making $15-20 because I've had the work experience.



To the point though, what makes the "educational" system worth it to you? No real world lessons or anything worthwhile for a decent job. You can do the same thing without it and actually be better off than someone fresh out of college with there shiny new degree.

Depends what you're going for in life. If you are ok making 15-20$ an hour for the rest of your life, then that's fine. It's nobody's business to judge your decisions. I to have asked myself this question many times, but some jobs are absolutely necessary to have a degree. For example being a doctor, lawyer, etc. I agree with you about the work experience though, I personally am going to move out on my own soon and intentionally quit my second job that pays less. Then I will fall below poverty level on paper and get financial aid for pretty much free. I sell a lot of stuff online though so I'm not necessarily hurting for money. Just something I personally want to do. Then I can still be making decent money while getting free college just in case.

 

[Heaven]

School has never been a real big interest of mine, it probably isn't for a lot of people, but I literally spend everyday fucking around with friends and sitting in the parking lot in my car chillin' with friends or women because I just don't have an interest, like I said before. I have not been told one right thing in school. I have this class called Shop, I have done things like welding, automotive shit, and woodworking, but my shop teacher is a stick in the mud and literally knows nothing. I was doing an oil change on a straight 6 engine, and he ordered the wrong oil filter, and he got me to put the old oil filter back on and put the new oil in the engine, and start it up and made me ruin the oil change. So just that one event is a prime example and people who create these school curriculum's in school, they better get a grip and actually hire someone who knows what the fuck they're doing.

 

[gunnar]

I can meet up with friends and get a free bus ride there plus they got heating unlike the shed i live in

that your friends are there everything else is ughhh

---

or all the girls that are there make it pretty worth it

---

i feel like plague is talking about the actual education and not the social interactions
i really dreaded highschool and most of the things we learned didn't help at all in my personal life or anything else besides being in school
i feel like if we would have been working most of these kids i was in class with wouldn't be fuck ups and would know how to do sonething with their lives instead of drinking, smoking and partying all through highschool and college

 

[Revo]

School is basically a test who is best at obeying the system... Leran shit u dont need without ever questioning authority. Thats the sheep a perfect society needs~

 

[Professor]

But for my college experience, I would lack the principles that I structure myself by today, as well as never learned some of the intangible things only taught by experience.
Experience: that most brutal of teachers, but you learn. My, do you learn.

 

[Greed]

I'm in college now and it may be really tough and expensive at the time, but once you finish and get to where you want to be, it will most likely all be worth it in the long run as you will typically have a higher paying job, a job you specialize in, and you get to have fun in college while doing it. I guess it does also depend on what you're looking for and how you are financially/job status at the moment.

 

[FTP-]

It makes no sense to me when people go to college in hopes of landing a 9-5 job.

 

[Color]

Sense of self worth, knowing you're not lazy, for starters. Not to mention you're working toward not breaking your back for the rest of your life.

 

[Fifa 20]

Im planning on just becoming a rapper so I dont really need school

 

[velox]

Like right now if I went to apply for a coding job they would laugh until I get my degree.

Can tell you for a fact that the degree is one of the last things they look at when hiring programmers. Experience and proof of your claims is what they want to see. Degrees don't mean as much in software engineering.

 

[PrintLn]

I was debating on responding until I read the last comment by @velox.

My guess is that this thread revolves around the USA so I'll start from that perspective.

What makes school worth it? It depends on the person and on the industry. The primary reason is statistics. Statistically going to college is better (or at least was, there is a lot of piggybacking off this reputation in brochures.) 

This thread includes most of the usual points made when discussing this topic so I'll give my thoughts on each one.

For example: Friend of mine just finished college and is at his mom's house looking for a job. No house, no car, no experience, or anything besides that his degree.

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]What degree did this friend get? Not all degrees are employable. Did his parents hear the dreaded "I want to major in art" sentence 4 or 5 years ago? Just because you have a degree doesn't mean it's worth anything... at all. Some degrees aren't even worth the paper they are printed on regardless of what it is. *cough* Walden University *cough* University of Phoenix *cough* They can argue they're accredited now but the fact remains. Many accredited schools are a joke too. Further, even if it's an employable degree from a 'reputable' university, that doesn't mean your friend is employable. Perhaps he is complete garbage at interviews and presents himself terribly. The degree isn't always to blame.[/font]

No real world lessons or anything worthwhile for a decent job. You can do the same thing without it and actually be better off than someone fresh out of college with there shiny new degree.

This is correct. The goal of college/school is not to teach life lessons or anything about the world (unless that's what you're studying, but you know what I mean). Colleges/universities don't actually teach practical stuff that you'll use on the job. I don't really know of any majors they DO teach practical stuff. My best guess is art but even then, painting is only half the battle. My parents are both in the medical field, neither of them learned anything they really used on the job. A great example is Computer Science. Most people that go into software development will get this degree if they choose to get one. CS is NOT software development and they have very little in common. I've seen job listings where they ask for CS, mathematics, physics, or a related major. None of these will help you in the first months of the job. However, they all use the same part of the brain so if you excel in one, you will probably do fine in the others. In this case I see the degree only being a test of endurance and at least some hope of not being retarded. Considering that mathematicians and computer scientists are typically academic this serves as a minimally acceptable metric. On the other hand, those who are absolutely die-hard passionate about software development WILL be a better employee than any academic with some fancy degrees. The difficulty here (not just in software) is that

1. These people are rare, it's very difficult to find them.
2. The keyword in your quote is "can," these are the ones who traded their social life for mastering their craft.
3. Die-hard passionate people have a tendency to look bad on paper, they don't play by the normal rules. It's difficult to spot them without talking to them. This is twice as bad when you realize that the Human Resources departments in most (all) companies are absolutely terrible in every way possible. They don't know the job they're hiring for and they cannot possibly make a good decision on someone. HR is a nightmare for these people. HR loves to sort by easy metrics like degrees because they have nothing better to use. A common problem that still exists today is HR drones looking for keywords in the application. This is especially bad in software development where acronyms are very common and more than one acronym can mean the same thing.

Im hopefully doing Computer Engineering with a concentration in Political Science

This is intriguing. I haven't heard of this before. Would you mind elaborating on this for me, just for my own personal curiosity?

And all with a decent starting median salary of 105k a year.

I will argue the ultimate goal in life is to be happy. Money will not make you or anyone except the most shallow of people happy. Money buys freedom, not happiness. If you want to drive around the city in circles for hours in your fancy sports car, you can do that. It won't make you happy though. At least not any more happy than alcohol makes an alcoholic. Some people think money buys happiness, but it really doesn't. I don't want to go on about this because it's just one of those things you either understand or you don't until you get older.

It IS possible to support a family on MUCH less than that, contrary to popular belief. Live within your means. Wealth is not about how much you earn, it's about how much you save.

My education hopefully at MIT will  not only be worth it for the money but for the fulfillment of knowledge.

I'm not sure what percentage of this message is sarcasm. MIT takes things more seriously academically. MIT is expensive but most students don't pay much, it's usually cheaper than community college. MIT wants the best brains, not the best wallets. 100% of MIT tuition is covered by scholarships and grants for families earning less than $75,000. If you expect to obtain lots of knowledge in college, expect disappointment instead. Someone who truly seeks knowledge will continually be disappointed in colleges/universities, hopefully not as much at MIT though. Some industries REQUIRE a degree no matter what. For example: medicine. You can't legally work without a degree. If you don't have a degree, don't bother applying, it's going straight into that really deep special round file. As I said previously, both of my parents are (were) in medicine (nurse and psychologist, both 4-year degrees), they learned almost nothing they used on the job. The only real benefits of the degree are being ALLOWED to work that job and getting paid more for having more degrees.

But if you read almost any good  job requirement it states you need a minimum of this degree or this many years in a field. It helps sort out people. Literally that is it. Like right now if I went to apply for a coding job they would laugh until I get my degree.

I would just like to point out that you don't NEED a degree for any job that doesn't legally require one. One reason for not requiring it is knowing someone that can get you hired. That's a pretty shitty reason and don't count on it. There are back doors to getting jobs too. You can get a completely different job at that company and then show them why you're good enough for the job you really want. You can befriend someone with power, make a splash, impress them. [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]The point is to stand out.[/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] [/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]For example Barrington Irving, the now famous pilot social engineered his way into the office of a CEO of a flight or loan (I forget which) company. Every Joe Schmoe walks in there with the standard crap on his résumé. For example, in tech support, one way to impress them on the spot is by saying "okay, give me 30 minutes with a problem someone is currently having right now and if I can't fix it, I'll walk out." Even if you don't fix it in 30 minutes, with a little explaining as to why it can't be fixed, they might still be impressed with you enough to hire you.[/font]

Statistically, a degree indicates a better person and likewise that person will make more money. Causation vs correlation for this is another topic. However, it's an easy (but crappy) metric, hence its widespread usage, especially among HR drones that have literally zero idea about the job you're being interviewed for. Having the degree means you can apply yourself and therefore indicates dedication/perseverance/obedience.

And you have to think what a decent job is. Like you won't be making 120k plus a year early without college

Statistically, yes. The probability of this being true for a given sample is still very high. However, as I explained above, it's not 100% true.

But in the end just follow your heart

Absolutely, 100% agree.

Not everyone is lucky enough to be making a stable amount of money. Many aren't given a direction and School/College gives them this.

I've already covered everything else you've said. For this snippet, I agree with the first sentence, minus the "luck." I don't believe there is some magical force going around touching people. However people are products of their biology and their environment. That's just nature vs. nurture. Both of those can put one at a severe disadvantage. Biology is more unfair because we have zero control over that. I agree many aren't given a direction (and their biology didn't give them a brain large enough to find it on their own) but I disagree that school/college gives them that. I'm interested in some support (evidence, examples, etc) for that as I'm curious why you said that.

School has never been a real big interest of mine, it probably isn't for a lot of people, but I literally spend everyday fucking around with friends and sitting in the parking lot in my car chillin' with friends or women because I just don't have an interest, like I said before.

I don't think many take any interest in it until it's too late. Knowledge is quite literally power. I can go on and on about this too. Oh, and I'll trade you some really OG Kiks for some women at my door.

I have this class called Shop, I have done things like welding, automotive shit, and woodworking, but my shop teacher is a stick in the mud and literally knows nothing. I was doing an oil change on a straight 6 engine, and he ordered the wrong oil filter, and he got me to put the old oil filter back on and put the new oil in the engine, and start it up and made me ruin the oil change. So just that one event is a prime example and people who create these school curriculum's in school, they better get a grip and actually hire  someone who knows what the fuck they're doing.

That's funny but sad at the same time. However it's not completely unexpected. If he knew what he was doing, he probably wouldn't be a teacher. Keep in mind that teachers are people too, they have feelings and problems all the same. Think about the people you go to school with. Nothing is really different from them then any of your teachers when they were that age. The nerdy teachers were nerdy and the dumbass teachers were dumbasses. My apologies for stereotyping (I can go on and on about why this shouldn't be given the negative connotation that it has) but shop workers/laborers usually aren't that intellectual to begin with. From my experience, I see some laborers that are dumb as nail in everything but they can rebuild a transmission and build all kinds of crazy shit with their bare hands. So some of their hands make up for their minds intelligence. Anyways, most laborers aren't that smart (I mean, their pay plateaus quickly, they get health problems from straining their body constantly, they're easily replaceable so no job security, etc; meanwhile working in an air conditioned office doesn't have those problems (except maybe the plateauing pay depending on the job.) so of course the shop teacher can't be expected to be brilliant. I mean, as long as they're happy, who cares? To me, an office with AC is a million times better than hard labor. Further, why did you put on the filter knowing it was the wrong one regardless of what the teacher said?

By the way, your signature got me three times already...

i feel like if we would have been working most of these kids i was in class with wouldn't be fuck ups and would know how to do sonething with their lives instead of drinking, smoking and partying all through highschool and college

I agree but that's a different discussion for another time.

School is basically a test who is best at obeying the system... Leran shit u dont need without ever questioning authority. Thats the sheep a perfect society needs~

I agree with this also but in a less conspiracy theory kinda way. Colleges/universities are companies. They make profit, including the "non-profit" institutions. I love the concept of both capitalism and education but somehow they've managed to create a giant mess in the USA. Don't believe me? Click the link to MIT admissions that I put above, it says "student consumers." I can go on and on about this also.

But for my college experience, I would lack the principles that I structure myself by today, as well as never learned some of the intangible things only taught by experience.
Experience: that most brutal of teachers, but you learn. My, do you learn.

I'm interested in a more thorough explanation of this.

---

Hopefully I've touched base on most things. I stopped several times while writing this for various interruptions so my thoughts might not be very clear. I think it's obvious that I really love thoughts, comments, and criticism, so if anyone has anything they'd like to say, I'd love to hear it.

 

[Heaven]

I was debating on responding until I read the last comment by @velox.

My guess is that this thread revolves around the USA so I'll start from that perspective.

What makes school worth it? It depends on the person and on the industry. The primary reason is statistics. Statistically going to college is better (or at least was, there is a lot of piggybacking off this reputation in brochures.) 

This thread includes most of the usual points made when discussing this topic so I'll give my thoughts on each one.

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]What degree did this friend get? Not all degrees are employable. Did his parents hear the dreaded "I want to major in art" sentence 4 or 5 years ago? Just because you have a degree doesn't mean it's worth anything... at all. Some degrees aren't even worth the paper they are printed on regardless of what it is. *cough* Walden University *cough* University of Phoenix *cough* They can argue they're accredited now but the fact remains. Many accredited schools are a joke too. Further, even if it's an employable degree from a 'reputable' university, that doesn't mean your friend is employable. Perhaps he is complete garbage at interviews and presents himself terribly. The degree isn't always to blame.[/font]

This is correct. The goal of college/school is not to teach life lessons or anything about the world (unless that's what you're studying, but you know what I mean). Colleges/universities don't actually teach practical stuff that you'll use on the job. I don't really know of any majors they DO teach practical stuff. My best guess is art but even then, painting is only half the battle. My parents are both in the medical field, neither of them learned anything they really used on the job. A great example is Computer Science. Most people that go into software development will get this degree if they choose to get one. CS is NOT software development and they have very little in common. I've seen job listings where they ask for CS, mathematics, physics, or a related major. None of these will help you in the first months of the job. However, they all use the same part of the brain so if you excel in one, you will probably do fine in the others. In this case I see the degree only being a test of endurance and at least some hope of not being retarded. Considering that mathematicians and computer scientists are typically academic this serves as a minimally acceptable metric. On the other hand, those who are absolutely die-hard passionate about software development WILL be a better employee than any academic with some fancy degrees. The difficulty here (not just in software) is that

1. These people are rare, it's very difficult to find them.
2. The keyword in your quote is "can," these are the ones who traded their social life for mastering their craft.
3. Die-hard passionate people have a tendency to look bad on paper, they don't play by the normal rules. It's difficult to spot them without talking to them. This is twice as bad when you realize that the Human Resources departments in most (all) companies are absolutely terrible in every way possible. They don't know the job they're hiring for and they cannot possibly make a good decision on someone. HR is a nightmare for these people. HR loves to sort by easy metrics like degrees because they have nothing better to use. A common problem that still exists today is HR drones looking for keywords in the application. This is especially bad in software development where acronyms are very common and more than one acronym can mean the same thing.

This is intriguing. I haven't heard of this before. Would you mind elaborating on this for me, just for my own personal curiosity?

I will argue the ultimate goal in life is to be happy. Money will not make you or anyone except the most shallow of people happy. Money buys freedom, not happiness. If you want to drive around the city in circles for hours in your fancy sports car, you can do that. It won't make you happy though. At least not any more happy than alcohol makes an alcoholic. Some people think money buys happiness, but it really doesn't. I don't want to go on about this because it's just one of those things you either understand or you don't until you get older.

It IS possible to support a family on MUCH less than that, contrary to popular belief. Live within your means. Wealth is not about how much you earn, it's about how much you save.

I'm not sure what percentage of this message is sarcasm. MIT takes things more seriously academically. MIT is expensive but most students don't pay much, it's usually cheaper than community college. MIT wants the best brains, not the best wallets. 100% of MIT tuition is covered by scholarships and grants for families earning less than $75,000. If you expect to obtain lots of knowledge in college, expect disappointment instead. Someone who truly seeks knowledge will continually be disappointed in colleges/universities, hopefully not as much at MIT though. Some industries REQUIRE a degree no matter what. For example: medicine. You can't legally work without a degree. If you don't have a degree, don't bother applying, it's going straight into that really deep special round file. As I said previously, both of my parents are (were) in medicine (nurse and psychologist, both 4-year degrees), they learned almost nothing they used on the job. The only real benefits of the degree are being ALLOWED to work that job and getting paid more for having more degrees.

I would just like to point out that you don't NEED a degree for any job that doesn't legally require one. One reason for not requiring it is knowing someone that can get you hired. That's a pretty shitty reason and don't count on it. There are back doors to getting jobs too. You can get a completely different job at that company and then show them why you're good enough for the job you really want. You can befriend someone with power, make a splash, impress them. [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]The point is to stand out.[/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif] [/font][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]For example Barrington Irving, the now famous pilot social engineered his way into the office of a CEO of a flight or loan (I forget which) company. Every Joe Schmoe walks in there with the standard crap on his résumé. For example, in tech support, one way to impress them on the spot is by saying "okay, give me 30 minutes with a problem someone is currently having right now and if I can't fix it, I'll walk out." Even if you don't fix it in 30 minutes, with a little explaining as to why it can't be fixed, they might still be impressed with you enough to hire you.[/font]

Statistically, a degree indicates a better person and likewise that person will make more money. Causation vs correlation for this is another topic. However, it's an easy (but crappy) metric, hence its widespread usage, especially among HR drones that have literally zero idea about the job you're being interviewed for. Having the degree means you can apply yourself and therefore indicates dedication/perseverance/obedience.

Statistically, yes. The probability of this being true for a given sample is still very high. However, as I explained above, it's not 100% true.

Absolutely, 100% agree.

I've already covered everything else you've said. For this snippet, I agree with the first sentence, minus the "luck." I don't believe there is some magical force going around touching people. However people are products of their biology and their environment. That's just nature vs. nurture. Both of those can put one at a severe disadvantage. Biology is more unfair because we have zero control over that. I agree many aren't given a direction (and their biology didn't give them a brain large enough to find it on their own) but I disagree that school/college gives them that. I'm interested in some support (evidence, examples, etc) for that as I'm curious why you said that.

I don't think many take any interest in it until it's too late. Knowledge is quite literally power. I can go on and on about this too. Oh, and I'll trade you some really OG Kiks for some women at my door.

That's funny but sad at the same time. However it's not completely unexpected. If he knew what he was doing, he probably wouldn't be a teacher. Keep in mind that teachers are people too, they have feelings and problems all the same. Think about the people you go to school with. Nothing is really different from them then any of your teachers when they were that age. The nerdy teachers were nerdy and the dumbass teachers were dumbasses. My apologies for stereotyping (I can go on and on about why this shouldn't be given the negative connotation that it has) but shop workers/laborers usually aren't that intellectual to begin with. From my experience, I see some laborers that are dumb as nail in everything but they can rebuild a transmission and build all kinds of crazy shit with their bare hands. So some of their hands make up for their minds intelligence. Anyways, most laborers aren't that smart (I mean, their pay plateaus quickly, they get health problems from straining their body constantly, they're easily replaceable so no job security, etc; meanwhile working in an air conditioned office doesn't have those problems (except maybe the plateauing pay depending on the job.) so of course the shop teacher can't be expected to be brilliant. I mean, as long as they're happy, who cares? To me, an office with AC is a million times better than hard labor. Further, why did you put on the filter knowing it was the wrong one regardless of what the teacher said?

By the way, your signature got me three times already...

I agree but that's a different discussion for another time.

I agree with this also but in a less conspiracy theory kinda way. Colleges/universities are companies. They make profit, including the "non-profit" institutions. I love the concept of both capitalism and education but somehow they've managed to create a giant mess in the USA. Don't believe me? Click the link to MIT admissions that I put above, it says "student consumers." I can go on and on about this also.

I'm interested in a more thorough explanation of this.

---

Hopefully I've touched base on most things. I stopped several times while writing this for various interruptions so my thoughts might not be very clear. I think it's obvious that I really love thoughts, comments, and criticism, so if anyone has anything they'd like to say, I'd love to hear it.

---

I hope you know, you can't build an engine, I'n tye case you think you could rebuild it, you can't. Every little gear and spring in the transmission is independent, lets say you grind your gears in the tranny, youbtry to replace, the thing is you can't, every little piece in the tranmission is unique, you can't have a new geat an old gear in your tranny, the tranny will slip and you will loose your gears. Just had to say that, but if you knew my shop teacher, you would know to do what he says, hes one big mother fucker and when he gets mad, hes like king kong, but hes definitely not the sharpest knofe in the drawer, surprised he even got the job.